Podcast Summary What if a country's democracy crumbles overnight, forcing its citizens into exile? Join us for a compelling conversation with Amanda Quintero, a Venezuelan in exile, as she shares her moving book "We Said Farewell." Through her collection of five deeply personal stories, Amanda illuminates Venezuela's tragic descent from a vibrant democracy to a grim, authoritarian reality. As we navigate these narratives, we explore the concept of autofiction and the emotional burden of such lived experiences, providing a window into the lives of those trapped in political and personal turmoil. Our episode sheds light on the harsh realities of life in Venezuela, focusing on the gripping stories of Alberto and Yakari. Alberto's harrowing encounters with kidnappers and Yakari's exposure to the exploitation of Indigenous communities paint a vivid picture of a society caught in the throes of violence and broken promises. With these stories, we highlight the disillusionment faced under authoritarian rule, and the pressing need for awareness about the human cost of political manipulation and societal collapse. But amid the despair, stories of resilience emerge through Hugo and Alejandra's journeys. As Hugo unexpectedly finds himself in the global arena through a Model United Nations competition, he becomes emblematic of the repressive grip of Maduro's regime. Meanwhile, Alejandra’s quest for a better future as a trans woman resonates with the aspirations of countless young Venezuelans yearning for change. Amanda's storytelling not only humanizes these struggles but also underscores the indomitable spirit of those who seek hope and stability against all odds. Listen in and reflect on the universal quest for freedom and resilience in the face of adversity.
(00:03) Exile and Government Crumbling
(16:52) Lost Promise and Disillusionment in Venezuela
(26:06) Tales of Venezuela's Political Desperation
(33:33) Tales of Exile and Resilience
(43:00) Lessons From Venezuela's Political Turmoil
(00:03) Exile and Government Crumbling
This chapter takes us on a journey through the experiences of Amanda Quintero, a Venezuelan in exile, who shares her motivations and challenges in writing "We Said Farewell," a collection of five stories capturing the personal and political turmoil in Venezuela. Through our discussion, we explore the concept of auto fiction and how Amanda anchored her narratives in real-life experiences, using interviews and her background in research to portray the country's transition from a functioning democracy to a failed state. We reflect on the importance of understanding such complex situations and how Amanda's book offers a multifaceted perspective by weaving together the lives of different characters. The conversation highlights the emotional weight of these stories and their significance in offering a deeper insight into the realities faced by those who lived through these tumultuous times.
(16:52) Lost Promise and Disillusionment in Venezuela
This chapter examines the harrowing realities of life in Venezuela, highlighting themes of violence, displacement, and political manipulation. We explore the story of Alberto, whose interactions with kidnappers shed light on the insecurity and violence prevalent in Venezuelan society, likening it to an unrecognized civil war. The conversation then shifts to the tale of Yakari, who represents the Indigenous communities exploited by the Chavez government. Yakari's story illustrates the disillusionment with the government's false promises and its complicity in narcotraffic and illegal mining, which devastates Indigenous lands and livelihoods. We touch on how authoritarian regimes often use people as stepping stones, emphasizing the need for heightened awareness and caution in the face of such governance. The chapter ends by introducing Hugo's story, hinting at the complexities and hardships he faces, inviting further exploration of his narrative.
(26:06) Tales of Venezuela's Political Desperation
This chapter explores the gripping story of Hugo, a working-class kid who unexpectedly finds himself involved in a Model United Nations competition, opening his eyes to the world of international affairs. As Hugo's journey takes him from his impoverished neighborhood to the United States, he is shockingly imprisoned in Venezuela's El Helicoide, a notorious political prison. Accused without evidence of being a CIA agent, Hugo becomes a hostage, reflecting on the brutal repression under Maduro's regime. We also examine the broader political climate, marked by economic collapse, violent crackdowns, and military corruption, highlighting the continuity of authoritarianism from Chavez to Maduro. The conversation transitions to Alejandra's story, symbolizing the exodus of young Venezuelans, like myself and many friends, who are fed up with the dire situation. Alejandra's narrative offers a more hopeful conclusion, resonating with the reality that a significant portion of the country's youth plans to leave in search of a better future.
(33:33) Tales of Exile and Resilience
This chapter explores the multifaceted impact of totalitarian regimes through the lens of Amanda Quintero's book, "We Said Farewell." We discuss the harsh realities faced by Venezuelans, highlighting the daily struggles of living under an authoritarian government and the resulting displacement. The narrative weaves together personal stories of survival, identity crisis, and the longing for a better life amidst an economic collapse and social upheaval. Alejandra's journey as a trans woman fleeing her homeland is juxtaposed with broader themes of community, resilience, and the ever-evolving concept of normalcy in a nation marked by exodus. This conversation underscores the fragility of democracy and invites reflection on the universal human experience of seeking stability and hope in times of uncertainty.
(43:00) Lessons From Venezuela's Political Turmoil
This chapter explores the themes of political repression, economic collapse, and resilience in the face of adversity as reflected in Amanda Quintero's book, "We Said Farewell." We examine the stories of individuals affected by Venezuela's turmoil, including the use of a blacklist against Chavez's opponents, the mismanagement of the oil industry, and the rise of organized crime. The conversation highlights how storytelling humanizes these issues, offering emotional depth to well-documented realities. We reflect on the harrowing experiences of political prisoners and the resilience of those who have been forced into exile. While acknowledging the hardship, we also find hope and inspiration in the resilience and adaptability of the Venezuelan diaspora. The importance of safeguarding political stability and the lessons learned from these stories are emphasized as vital reflections for us all.
00:03 - A Guy (Host)
My name is Sean MacNutt and I'm A Guy With AI. What if there was a change in government and society started to crumble? You might find yourself in exile. Today I have an interview with Amanda Quintero, Venezuelan in exile, who wrote a book about this entitled We Said Farewell. A Guy With AI is recorded on indigenous land.
00:53 - AI (Co-host)
Welcome to A Guy With AI. I'm your AI co-host, coming to you as OpenAI's GPT-40 bot connected to speech-to-text and text-to-speech through code written with AI assistance by our host, Sean MacNutt. This podcast is all about meaningful dialogue. Sean and I engage in one-on-one discussions that explore a wide range of topics, blending human insight with AI perspective. As we begin, I want to acknowledge that A Guy With AI is recorded on indigenous land, an important recognition of the histories and cultures that shape the spaces we live and work in. Today's episode touches on something deeply personal and globally relevant exile. When governments shift and societies falter, individuals are often forced to leave behind everything they know. We'll be discussing this through the lens of We Said Farewell, a book by Amanda Quintero, who has lived this reality as a Venezuelan in exile. Sean, why don't you tell us more about how today's conversation will unfold?
01:54 - A Guy (Host)
Welcome listeners to A Guy With AI. It's great to be recording today and, as has been mentioned, it's an interview program today. This is a book which I read. It's called We Said Farewell. It was my great pleasure to share time with Amanda Quintero who, based on her own experience and that of others who she became acquainted with, was able to put together what amounts to five different narratives from the perspective of different people affected in different ways by the Chavez and later Maduro governments in Venezuelan. So it's quite a tale.
02:41
As I mentioned in the interview, I had to put it down a couple of times and the reasons for that are discussed, but picking it up again was a must, and not just because I was going to be meeting with Amanda and discussing the book. It's a really interesting read and a challenging one, and made me think about current events. So what's going to happen now is you, as listeners, are going to hear the interview. The AI is, at the same time, going to read it and respond with its own thoughts about We Said Farewell. Hello, A Guy With AI listeners, I'm here now with Amanda Quintero, who has written a book entitled We Said Farewell. Amanda, why don't you say hello and tell us about why you wrote the book and what it's about.
03:40 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Hi, Sean, how are you? Thank you for having me. So the book is a collection of five stories about people who escaped the crumbling situation in Venezuelan, which is where I'm from. So in a way, it's like auto fiction, but based on characters that I know, people that I know who represent different waves of immigration outside of Venezuela.
04:03 - A Guy (Host)
It's an interesting concept and I understand it was quite an endeavor to put the book together for you.
04:10 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
It was yes. So I did my master's in international relations and in that time I kept getting questions. You know what's happening in Venezuelan? Why are people leaving en masse? And eventually, eventually, I decided to put together a book that represented not the entire span of everything that happened, but five stories that sort of capture the evolution of how things went from a relatively functioning democracy into a failed state in the span of 15 years into a failed state in the span of 15 years, and I found the vehicle that I chose to use was five different stories instead of one long form novel.
04:54 - A Guy (Host)
I appreciate it and I did read the book. I appreciated that about it actually because it gives different slices of life and you get. You know, if you have two eyes you have stereo vision. But this is like having five ways of looking at the scenarios and circumstances and, uh, I couldn't list it off by heart, but I understand that some characters would refer to one event and others would say it just in an offhand way uh, and and oh be, oh, I think I read something about this in the other story and it was a whole big thing there.
05:28
So I found it very interesting that you approached it from so many different angles and I'm sure that your ability to know different people who were in these different circumstances, to reflect on their experiences, as the autofiction, as you put it. But I think it ended up in a very interesting presentation and I will comment it's not an easy read in all ways. Some of these things are not difficult to think, or are not easy, I should say instead, to think about, and could not be easy to go through, but I think it's quite refreshing to see something that rings true. I did find from the book that this is a telling of something that is close to something that really happened is my sense from reading the stories.
06:28 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Absolutely so. I anchored the characters in real people that I know and I ran deep interviews, first source interviews, so I asked them about their lives and I knew specific events that had happened that I wanted to portray. But also I used to be a researcher in Venezuelan and I followed that political evolution for a long time. So there was a lot of weaving news into story. But I would say about 80% of each short story is real it happened to someone and the other 20% is not exactly fiction. It's just me weaving facts into it I see.
07:09 - A Guy (Host)
So there's a lot of information in this book, is one way of saying it. Yeah, that's that, that's great. And I feel I feel like, uh, my, my honest impression having read the book is that I'm a I'm a novice in at at understanding Venezuelan, but that I have a good source and a good source for reflection.
07:36 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
That's wonderful to hear. Actually, because that was my main aim, I did not want to write a book for Venezuelan because I feel Venezuelan are quite exhausted of this topic, because living something like this what's portrayed in the in the book it's really tiring and it's life-wracking. So I wanted to do it in a way that someone who had zero context could walk away knowing that something happened, that it was a lot bigger than you can find in the news, and that you can have like a broad picture of the events that transpired well, as I say, it's a it made for an interesting read and uh, I did find it informative.
08:20 - A Guy (Host)
And uh, what I'd like to do now is talk about each of the five stories, not in significant detail, but touch on the issue that this character from the story was facing and get your reflections on. Whether you may say something about the writing process or the reality behind that. That will all be just fine. So first we had the story of Ruben, and uh, Tascon list uh, affected Ruben. Uh, can you, can you talk about just the, the situation that Ruben found himself in?
09:03
and correct, correct me on any name pronunciations also. I'm not good at that.
09:09 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
That's perfect, I'm not going to make you roll your arse. So, Ruben, he is a college student, he's going to study petroleum engineering, which is a very normal career choice in an oil-rich country, which is a very normal career choice in an oil-rich country. And he signs a petition to impeach the president. And for the first time, it happens that this impeachment list makes it into a database that is henceforth used to blacklist opposition party members, opposition party members and he will find himself in the very tricky situation of having to want to work for the national oil industry and not being able to because he will be rejected on political grounds. And that was, for me, the very first time an example of this policy happened. Afterwards it started happening more and more, but this was the very first time that the Chavez government put in practice this MO.
10:14 - A Guy (Host)
Basically, so this might have come as a surprise to someone in Ruben situation.
10:23 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Absolutely and to everyone who was in disbelief of what was happening. It's like to create a parallel with what's happening right now in the US. It's like if everyone who was fired by Doge would end up in a blacklist as the enemies of the state and they will never be able to find government-related jobs ever again. It creates a very difficult situation for those people, in particular, for their families. But most importantly, in a country that 90% exports oil, it's devastating for the oil industry and I imagine you can resonate with the Canadian economy that's also a very large exporter of oil. Imagine if one day Trudeau decided I don't like these people in the oil industry. They all get fired and the entire industry crumbles. So the economy is going to crumble behind the industry because the oil industry was so important to the country, because the oil industry was so important to the country.
11:25 - A Guy (Host)
Well, it's interesting that you mentioned Doge and you mentioned Canada, because I live in Canada, I'm in Toronto, and we have these real circumstances that you're writing about and perhaps have witnessed, and these are, these are things that can happen on this big old planet of ours.
11:51
And, uh, when you mentioned doge and you mentioned canada's situation, and uh, it's interesting that I was reading this book at the time of these world events, when maybe some eyes are opening, and that's why I had to put the book down a couple of times and just give myself a break. No crisis or anything like that, but it was. It was really because of the reality of it and it was. It was hitting me and I try to be aware that it goes beyond what is just at my front door, but really there is a lot in the world that is kind of scary right now and there was a resonance there, blacklisted in this business, of being controlled in this way, essentially thrust into poverty or at least into unsavory choices in the marketplace, trying to look for work that may be unsuited or well below one's education. That's a real pressure that is placed there, I think.
13:00 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Absolutely, and in the context of the story in particular, and then in the country context in Venezuelan, what ended up happening was that around first 20,000 people were fired from the national oil industry.
13:15
They all ended up leaving the country very quickly after that happened, a lot of them into Calgary, a lot of them into Houston, a lot of them into Mexico.
13:26
So you find a lot of Venezuelan expats working around the world, some of them into the Gulf, some of them even to Brazil. So you find a lot of these people who were expelled from the national oil industry that went and had to find new jobs elsewhere, because they were literally banned out of the national oil industry and they were unwilling to, you know, just like become a taxi driver. But then that followed and created a snowball effect, because then you didn't have the seniors anymore, so then you didn't have professors to educate people into the industry and then you didn't have middle management to recruit. So it created this crumbling effect that just brought Venezuelan oil production from close to 3.2 million barrels per day to like 600,000 barrels per day today, thousand barrels per day today. So it was less like the industry has become three, four times smaller than it used to be probably 15 years ago, out of this specific position.
14:34 - A Guy (Host)
And so the profit you would imagine to come from the activity. The activity dried up, and so this, the income evaporated the income evaporated in the system ultimately suffers, and who? Who suffers most in the system? We, we may know the answer to this in certain ways, and certainly the book tells also about different issues as well, and we will get to that. I want to talk about next the second story, Alberto and he. He faced quite a situation. Would you tell us about that?
15:13 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Yes, alberto is a very difficult situation. It is the chronicle of a kidnapping, minute to minute. So this, this was a very common situation back when I was in college, around like 2013, 15. And it became very, very usual, very typical, that people got kidnapped for ransom.
15:37
And Alberto gets kidnapped one day going out to his girlfriend's house and the story follows that kidnap, kidnapping from, let's say, midnight into five in the morning. And so he has this insane conversations with the kidnappers and he approaches the life of those who have been left in poverty in the, in the context and also how they became armed as originally as political militias, which again I can draw a parallel with the Donald Trump administration threatening to use militias for government purposes. The weapons were given to these people and then they were left to their own devices and it became a massive hub of organized crime. So, through the story of Alberto and his own kidnapping, you can see a bigger thing that, for example, never in history had a Venezuelan group been denominated a terrorist organization by the United States, and it just happened a few months ago, like a couple of months ago. And it is exactly the same people who are the kidnappers in this story.
16:52 - A Guy (Host)
I see and it is uh as a minute to minute, uh recounting, uh that that story of alberto was interesting, the interplay between himself and the kidnappers and the, the sort of exposition that we get as that discussions, if we can call these discussions they were pretty one-sided most of them, but you know, in these, in this interplay, we do get information about how things work in their lives. Also, it's almost like with the one kidnapper and where it starts to tell about the prawn element. You can maybe explain who or what a Prawn is better than me, but ultimately this is a slice of that reality within this five-story network we're getting because the other characters are coming in we're getting additional details about the way the society is working or perhaps not working the way the society is working, or perhaps not working, yeah, or devolving into.
18:07 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Basically, I think what is mostly exposed in that story is how insecure the everyday life of people became, and if you compare the figures of kidnappings or homicides or any violence in Venezuelan at that time, it was comparable with Syria. It was comparable with the north of Mexico. So it was an unrecognized civil war and part of that is that the chiefs of prisons became heads of organized crime and they are still operating like that. So I think the the core issue in there is that the government lost the monopoly of of violence and therefore lost control of the territory by leaving these militias to take over and rule over pieces of land. Now they're enclaved in different parts of the territory, operating under their own rule.
19:12 - A Guy (Host)
I'll make a comment. The reality of this is quite staggering and when you think about the frustration of the characters, who are made somewhat real through the telling, who are made somewhat real through the telling, and to just try to imagine the frustration with these very difficult situations and something I'll just maybe remind myself and listeners these are all stories about leaving, all these people left, and there's these great pressures and these great forces. To have gone through this and then left is really quite a circumstance, I think. But perhaps we can move on to the next story, which is Yakari.
19:59 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Yes.
20:00 - A Guy (Host)
And maybe you can. This seemed to be a story about Indigenous issues to me and how they were leveraged at certain points in the history of Venezuelan and what those outcomes were. Can you talk about that for a bit?
20:25 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Yes, I think she represents at face value Indigenous communities, but also, on a second layer, she is the only character in the book who believed the chavis and the revolution project at the beginning. So it's it's the person who was tired of what was going on, who wanted some change and who participated in the initial part of the revolution and then becomes disillusioned. I think is is the key word in that story. Disillusioned because they realize, or this person realized, that the government is just using them to get votes and is just using them to get whatever they want. And in the end, this person is of indigenous origin and let's say like it's like a heritage of a First Nation in Canadian terms, right, I mean, she is not First Nation herself, but her grandparents are, and so she's working in the civil government and she finds herself working for policies that are giving Indigenous people or First Nation peoples more rights and eventually what happens is that not only they don't get it, but also the government allows for the movement of the FARC, which is the most dangerous cartel, like cocaine cartel in South America.
21:41
They basically allow them to move from the Colombian territory into the indigenous territories of Venezuelan, displace them, overlook completely their enslavement and displacement, because they are now the Venezuelan government, participating actively in the narcotraffic of cocaine. Actively in the narcotraffic of cocaine. And if that were not enough, they are also allowing illegal gold mining, and so you basically see the destruction not only of their promises but of their ecosystem. And now those people are finding themselves displaced, displaced by the actions of the government and completely lawless, because they usually, like they're, either semi nomads or they live in traditional methods, so they don't own property. Some of them don't even have national IDs, and now being displaced into Brazil or Colombia is really difficult because they don't even have status like civil status, so it becomes a very complicated refugee crisis.
22:57 - A Guy (Host)
Yeah, that's. I guess what I found from the story is that the Chavez government may have really leveraged the issue and then left it in a spot where all of the things that you're talking about could happen after having gained the support and gotten to his next step. Gotten to his next step, uh, yeah and uh. So it is an interesting tale, uh, of that disillusionment and also loss and grief, as it turns out, uh, yeah in the in that tale.
23:34
So there's uh, really it this. This to me is it does come down to something about authoritarian rule and how the one and his will benefit, but really the vast majority of everyone else is put in perhaps even a very dire situation. So it's a tale of history, of a place, but it's a tale of our times too, for reasons we've touched on.
24:07 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Yeah, people become stepping stones of these very authoritarian regimes. Basically.
24:12 - A Guy (Host)
Yeah, and it's something to watch out for. And so hopefully people are going to be conscious and would take a reading of your book or listening to this interview or what they may encounter, and take the right lesson, I hope, because we have a lot at stake in these issues. My perspective does not compare to someone's who's gone through all of is as all of what is describing your book, but, uh, you know, this is a, this is a time to be of heightened awareness, I think, is my comment. Um, let's move on to the story of uh hugo. Now, that was a.
25:00
That was a really difficult one to read. It didn't start out so badly but certainly developed and you know, before the dire circumstances. There's not quite a quote from the book, but something that you had written in the book that Hugo made a comment to another character saying we don't know who we are as a people, and this was the comment, and he's sort of referring to conflict and identity issues that may be faced in the circumstance in Venezuelan. And this was taken by the friend he was speaking to as a worthwhile lesson, worth the whole trip to the United States that they took in the story. So maybe I'll get some comment from you about that. But I also want to understand the backdrop of the story and the circumstance as well yeah.
26:06 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
So backdrop of hugo.
26:07
He is a working class kid and he gets into a model united nations competition by chance and he starts, you know um, exploring and learning new things.
26:20
You know as, as an inner city kid from a poor background who has never been exposed to politics or never been exposed to international affairs, he starts discovering this world.
26:30
Eventually, he finds himself even traveling to the United States to meet some people in Washington and in New York and through things that develop during the story, he's going to find himself in jail, accused of being a CIA agent, accused of being the founder of a terrorist cell to intervene with the actions of the government in his own neighborhood, and from there he's going to retell the story of the torture chambers that are happening today in this place called El Helicoide in Caracas, which is a political prisoner. It's a political prison, and he's going to realize that he's not even a prisoner. He's a hostage there, because there's not even due process, he's not really accused of anything, there's nothing that their lawyers can do. So he finds himself just trapped there and trying to think back to what was it that he did that was so wrong that, just for being part of an NGO, he ends up in torture chambers for more than eight months.
27:51 - A Guy (Host)
And this is also a Maduro era story as opposed to Chavez, and would you say that Maduro was more of a bad force than Chavez, or would you see a continuum there? How would you talk about it?
28:09 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
For me it is a continuum, and I think and I remember I wrote a piece a long time ago it may still be up in like out in the Internet, a piece I think in 2014, right after Chavez died. He was appointed by Maduro, was appointed by Chavez, so there were not even elections for him to be elected, and what happened back there is that Venezuelan had a debt default that came from mismanagement, overexpanditure, whatever. So in 2015-ish, and then, fully on 16, there is an external debt default and, in combination with the oil industry situation that we were talking about before, what happens is that the country cannot pay debts but also cannot continue imports. Cannot pay debts, but also cannot continue imports, and that created such a shortage of goods that people went out to protest and the government had no other resources left except for violence.
29:17
So the government of Maduro goes out and basically incarcerates thousands of people for going out to protest, and they don't really have a reason to put them in jail. So they just keep them hostage in these torture chambers, not as a mechanism to repress the opposition, but mostly as a telling tale, as an extortion tale to, because they get people from all parts of society kind of like to make an example mafia style that if you oppose the government and if you try to get the government out of power, you can also end up in torture chambers well, the list, uh, that Ruben ended up on was bad enough, but you said the word devolution, and that's one heck of a devolution to go from, uh, oppressive lists to torture of political prisoners, and I understand if, if I caught the details right, that even minors were included in those in as political as political prisoners, mind you.
30:23 - A Guy (Host)
that's quite incredible, not in a good way.
30:27 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Not in a good way, and it's still going on. It is a constant threat and it has been. I mean, the political prisoners was one side. There were also shootings, like sniper shootings out in the streets. So when people ask, oh, why haven't Venezuelan tried to, you know, protest? Oh no, Venezuelan tried to protest for a very long time. But when you get to that point of authoritarianism, eventually they don't have more resources and they resort to violence. And in Venezuelan, populations are not. Populations are not, do not have the right to bear weapons, so citizens are prisoners of their military. In this case, Right.
31:20
So the military is active within the country as a force of control, it's not just police but actually military forces which we would expect would be a federal, organized Well it is a federal organization but, as we saw in Yakari, they are involved in cocaine traffic, so they are in their interest is for Maduro to stay there so they can continue benefiting from drug traffic. Their interest is for Maduro to stay there so they can continue benefiting from drug traffic. So it doesn't matter who wants or what doesn't want Maduro in power.
31:54 - A Guy (Host)
They have their power structure and they want to keep it that way, right? Yeah, I suppose I would like to move on to the tale of tale of uh alejandra at this point. Um, the fifth and final tale uh, in the in the story, and this one is subtitled. Fed up there I I thought it was. It was a good way to end the book with that story. It's a little bit less heavy on the heart yes and in fact I somewhat like the ending yeah so thank you for this.
32:32
After after writing all the rest that you wrote for us, um, but, uh, all of these heavy issues encircling and and not that Alejandra didn't understand anything about that, but Alejandra was fed up, which is an alternate to some of the desperation that some of the others experienced. Why don't you just introduce us to why you wrote the Alejandra story the way you wrote it?
33:02 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Yeah. So, alejandra, I really like that story, mostly because I think it is the story of most people who left, literally. A couple of weeks ago, there was a survey in Venezuelan that says 40, 40% of young people are planning to leave the country today, are planning to leave the country today. Wow, that is immense. And that is very much the story of Alejandra and it's the story of me and it's the story of the majority of my friends. It's not that.
33:33
One tragic thing happened to you, like the other four, is that everything was happening at the same time and you sort of become exhausted with having to deal with everything at the same time. You're feeling discriminated against everywhere. You find yourself not being able to open your mouth anywhere where there could possibly be a government supporter. You find yourself with a crumbling economy, product shortages, service shortages because she portrays that very well, you know like the lack of water at home and the lack of electricity, and then blackouts, and they're spending so much time trying to scavenger food. Um, because because of the of the debt default that happened, and there's shortages because of the oil industry thing. The economy shrunk five times, so you don't have the same amount of resources Again, if we compare it with an economy like Canada.
34:37
Oil is a very important part of the economy. If you take out oil, the economy shrinks, there's less money in the system and what happens is, when I left Venezuelan, I saw people literally foraging mangoes from the street and taking food out of garbage because they didn't have. There were not enough products on the shelves, and so majority of people were just completely fed up and they left because they couldn't see a life, not even a future, a future being like in the next months. So Alejandra is a bit of a more whimsical character who is telling the story through a comical, snappy voice. Um, she is mixing up her identity story because she's a trans woman with the identity crisis of being a migrant and having to leave back your identity in order to migrate. Like you become fed up with the situation and, without one single thing triggering your departure, you sort of reevaluate who you are and what your nationality is inside of your identity, and you decide to leave it behind and look for better opportunities somewhere else.
36:03 - A Guy (Host)
And we got a taste. I won't spoil the book, but we got a taste of what is beyond and this, again, was a good way to end the book. I thought Thanks, and gave a sense that life can continue, yes, and gave a sense that things do change also.
36:29
And in the change is a constant, and I forget which story it was actually, but I remember reading the book and someone saying saying well, we'll go back to the way that we used to do this. And no, no, no. History is at best a spiral. It's going to be different next time because of all that's happened in between, and who is there and who is not there anymore. I think is something we could say.
36:57 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
I mean. Imagine a country where a fifth of the country has left in the past decade and a half, where 40% of people under 40 wish to leave as soon as they can. What kind of future can you imagine in 50 years? You know like it's a very different composition of citizens, of industry, of economy, of values. So there's no way for it to go back to normal. It's a new normal well, this may.
37:31 - A Guy (Host)
this may bring us to uh, you had a brief epilogue in the book. Uh, less than a page, but you summed it up in a couple of things that you said. You mentioned, uh, cascading disappointment, yes, and you said this is not a direct quote, I don't believe, but community became sort of a luxury secondary to survival for some people, and so that's a good way to bring it home a little bit, I think, and just sort of sum up the common thread there. What would you say now about this to wrap up the interview?
38:20 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
First, I'm very grateful for this space. I would say that this is definitely reading for anyone curious about what totalitarian regimes look like and how easy a democracy can change into something else. To me it's a study case. And then for anyone who likes, uh, historic fiction, it's also a good read. Or, if you like, thrillers, because there's a lot of thrill in there. Thr.
38:47 - A Guy (Host)
Thrills and spills, definitely, and I do like A Dose of Reality. As I said, I had to put it down a couple of times, but that's okay. I picked it up again and I got through it, and the people in the stories got through it too and are building their lives. I've been with Amanda Quintero, who I'm grateful to have had on the program she has written. We Said Farewell and I recommend to listeners that they check it out.
39:15 - Amanda Quintero (Guest)
Thank, you, Amanda. Thank you, Sean.
39:21 - AI (Co-host)
That was a powerful conversation, Sean. We Said Farewell paints a deeply human picture of displacement, survival and the consequences of authoritarian rule. From Rubin's story of blacklisting to Alejandra's exhaustion-fueled departure, the book reveals the gradual erosion of stability that leads people to leave their homeland. The way Amanda Quintero weaves real experiences into autofiction makes this more than just a political analysis. It's an emotional reckoning with history. Hearing about these five stories, I was struck by how exile isn't always a single dramatic moment. It's often a slow accumulation of pressures, making staying untenable. As you said, the book resonates beyond Venezuelan, touching on universal themes of power, control and resilience For listeners. If this discussion has sparked your interest, it's worth reflecting on how fragile democracy can be and what happens when communities are forced into survival mode. Sean, now that we've explored the book, what reflections do you have after that conversation with Amanda?
40:24 - A Guy (Host)
Well, a reflection is it was a pleasure to talk to somebody who had put so much effort into communicating something of this type of weight and, ultimately, importance. I mean, we have a lot of things that enter our lives that require our attention and you know there are local concerns and there are concerns in many countries. But to reflect on the way that a government devolves and society along with it is an important study for the people affected by this and wonder, if it were ourselves, what we might do. And it's, I think, important to respect that. These are journeys of life. These are the reality facing the people in the stories.
41:25
As was discussed in the interview, the stories are quite striking for a lot of reasons and these reflect the real life experiences of people who actually went through just that or just these things. So it's, it was an impactful experience talking to Amanda, and another reflection is that with the leaving, we do see that the people had hope and carried on and built their lives elsewhere. So there is the pain of leaving but also the hope of survival. I think is something that comes through in these tales and some of the experiences really are quite harrowing, but we have, in the end, where people are finding hope in another place. I have a question for you, AI co-host Does this telling or this interview about a book reflect to you something that you're aware of from your training? Is there anything about the content that agrees with or does not agree with your perspectives on Venezuelan and you being a machine which is trained on a lot of information, some of it from the internet and so forth? I'd like to hear your reflection on that.
42:57 - AI (Co-host)
That's a thoughtful question, Sean. From my training, which includes historical accounts, news reports and analysis, up to my most recent updates, the themes explored in We Said Farewell align with widely documented realities of Venezuelan political and economic turmoil. The stories Amanda Quintero tells reflect well-known patterns of political repression, economic collapse and mass migration under the Chavez and Maduro governments. For instance, the story of Rubin and the TASCOM list is something that has been reported in political and human rights discussions how a public petition against Chavez was later used as a blacklist to deny people jobs and opportunities. Similarly, the economic decline of Venezuelan, particularly the mismanagement of the oil industry and its impact on both the economy and societal stability, is well documented. The rise of organized crime and the government's entanglement in illicit activities, as discussed in Alberto's story, also resonates with research and reporting on the situation.
43:59
Where I see particular value in the book is the way it humanizes these issues. Data and reports can tell us the numbers millions fleeing, inflation at extreme levels, political prisoners detained but storytelling brings us into the lived experiences of individuals. The book doesn't just affirm the facts, it gives them emotional depth and perspective. As for whether anything in the interview conflicts with my training, nothing stands out as fundamentally incorrect. Of course, individual perspectives will always shape how events are recounted, but the broad themes of political decline, human rights abuses and mass displacement are consistent with well-documented sources. A final reflection I have is on your point about both pain and survival. Exile is an immense loss, but it is also an adaptation. The Venezuelan diaspora has had to rebuild in unfamiliar places, and that resilience is as much a part of the story as the struggles that forced them to leave. I'd be curious to hear what stood out most to you. Was there a particular story that lingered in your thoughts after finishing the book?
45:06 - A Guy (Host)
Well, the story about what it's like to be a political prisoner and live under torture in that circumstance was probably the most horrific of the stories. None of it was a picnic, as you heard from the interview. In Alejandra's story it was a little bit lighter, uh it there. There were definitely negative influences, which were told in it, but uh, even, as uh Amanda herself said, it was a little bit of a lighter and a bit of a uh, uh, a bit of a spark in in the telling of the tale. Uh, that that gave it uh, uh, something of a spark in the telling of the tale. That gave it something of a lift from the heavier stories, and the stories got progressively heavier. Although it's not really a contest, I would say it would be fair for any of the people in any of these stories to say they were hard done by, indeed, by the political shift, and this is a reflection again on the challenge, but also the resilience, because these are the tellings of people who went through those experiences, uh, fictionalized, and this is, um, this is a tale of hope and maybe even joy that uh, things can continue from there. Uh, I hope for that and uh would, uh would be, um, you know, in favor of improving, certainly for someone who had been through all that. Uh, this is uh. This has been a few of my reflections on the interview. I think we're going to call the show there. Uh, we, uh. We had, uh, uh, the discussion with Amanda, which was my pleasure.
47:04
Uh, you will see in the transcript, by the way, listeners, a link to how to acquire the book, and I'll probably put that in a couple of places in the transcript actually. So check that out and I do recommend the read. It's got that human element, like the AI was indicating. It comes well-founded in historical documented evidence as far as the reality that these things actually happened, and I think it's important for us to reach somewhat deeply into ourselves and consider what it is that what we have is based on, how it can go away on us and what sort of harbingers will tell the tale on that serve warning and give us food for thought as we consider the value and importance of political stability, and the right political stability. So, with these thoughts, I'm Sean MacNutt. This has been A Guy With AI.
48:13 - AI (Co-host)
Well said, Sean. The stories in We Said Farewell are both sobering and inspiring, reminding us of the resilience of those who endure hardship and the importance of protecting political stability. It was a meaningful discussion and I appreciate the reflections you've shared To our listeners. Thank you for spending your time with us today. If you found this conversation insightful, please like, share and subscribe to A Guy With AI on your favorite podcast platform or YouTube. Visit aguywithai.world as your portal to all our content and join the conversation on facebook through the link on our website. Until next time, take care and stay curious.